On Vic and something we don’t know. Do y’all remember their having to pull Cliff off of Vic in the dugout that game?

I think if you really wanted to consider if the Phils could get better for 2013 by trading Lee and using that salary to bring in new players, you would need a much more complete understanding of who is actually available. There aren’t a whole ton of guys out there who are likely to bring more value than Lee in 2013. On the other hands, a) the Phillies have a lot of positions where they need players and b) Lee was about the ninth highest paid player in 2012 and while he was very good, he wasn’t the ninth best.

The other thing that people running the team understand and that we don’t is how much money Cliff Lee makes for the organization, whether it helps them win or not (obviously he helps them win, but he’s not going to carry the Phillies to the post-season by himself). I know I’m a lot more enthusiastic about going to see Cliff Lee’s start than I would be Tyson Brummett’s (if he weren’t on the Blue Jays).

Not sure I necessarily think that trading Cliff Lee is a sign that the Phillies think it’s over, though, cause he seems like the most tradeable of the enormous contracts. Think there’s a possibility the Phillies could trade him without starting over.

Hoping for the best on Erbe. Per your explanation, it seems like there’s a case to be made that Joe Jordan has a lot of information that we don’t.

On the window closed or not, I think it’s possible that the Phillies can make a whole lot of money with a team that people want to see even if there’s not much chance that team is going to be great. The Phillies have way more information than we do, in particular about Halladay and Howard and their health and how likely they are to be productive in 2013. I think the Phillies need both Halladay and Howard to be way better in 2013 than they were in 2012 to have much of a chance.

The Erbe thing follows a similar recent pattern. Joe Jordan, who is currently working as the farm director for the Phillies, was the head of the draft in the Orioles system until about a year ago. The Phillies have made a lot of signings of guys that Jordan drafted for the Orioles as minor league free agents thus far, and also plucked two useful pieces in the Thome trade. Not saying it is a bad thing, just not surprising.